By the way if something you followed here didnt work for you, you could have chosen to ask me if Id help figure out why and I likely would have. Once you specifically set the bottom padding of a paragraph to say 20px, all browsers will give paragraphs a 20px bottom padding. WebMoreover, an externally linked CSS file, once loaded the first time, does not have to be reloaded and re-read on every page. If the human eye cant tell any difference, then whats the point? Its quicker to develop with tables Nope. However, I dont think thats the main reason to choose a css layout over a table-based layout. All the pro-css designers Ive ever worked with have tended to be full of shit, constantly creating new display bugs in production. I have a business subscription with them. By the way I forgot to mention it when I commented on your post, but I did enjoy reading it. Im not trying to say that tables are better, but this whole css and divs are better is wrong imo, its about using the right tool for the right job, divs are good for block layout designs its what they do best, whereas tables are better for column type layouts. Learning to layout an entire site with divs and css is the hardest part, but I promise itll be worth it. At first its confusing since its such a different approach, but once you make it through the learning curve its obvious that the div/css combination is a much better and more flexible approach to building sites. Take the time to learn how to use it. Its is also much quicker to use tables, and hey, yeah, once in a while it is nice to be able to glance at your code in a wysywig and actually see what it looks like. With tables you know exactly where you are placing your content, exactly!!! I wont restate all the reasons why since I said them in the post already. Its often used as simple data storage, NoSQL. If your visitors are using IE you need to support IE and whether its the code or the browser that gets things wrong is irrelevant. What Im saying is the entirety of your layout shouldnt be one table inside another inside another. Now I barely have to test my layouts in multiple browsers because Ive learned how to keep them consistent across browsers. Nice article. Read the post to find out why. This site is simple and fantastic, thanks for making it easy to read your content. Discover the best hard disk format for your Mac! Very interesting information. Maybe Ill apply changes to my test pages as my home page changes and track the time involved. 5) Greater Consistency If you use template files and CSS, where is there inconsistency? The fact that different browsers and different versions of browsers look at these and other variables differently is a really pain. And heres what Im referring to you saying in your post: The problem most people have when learning to use divs is trying to force them to act like tables instead of allowing them to be what they are.. You CSS is better in both theory and practice. My guess as to why they didnt learn it as well as you is because its actually not intuitive as you say, especially when trying to implement a grid shape with 3 independent blocks. Much of using css for layout is realizing that you dont need to do as much as you think. Im simply adding another piece to it. In other words you havent taken the time to learn how to layout a site with css. Im not suggesting its trivial to learn css, but its also not accurate to say the language itself is causing your specific layout issues. I show this above in the post. At least my code doesnt use tables for the site layout. And all of this is absolutely hilarious when you attempt to make it work in multiple versions of IE and every other browser, let alone on an iPad or iPhone. When I first learned how to develop a website I learned to build them with tables like so many others. To design in CSS is far better, by the subject of order, maintenance, accessibility, navigability and thousand reasons more. Q&A for work. Columns of equal height? How does it suggest we should use tables? The only time I ever use tables anymore is to quickly horizontally and -vertically- oppose an image or something else on a temporary coming soon type page. If there is anyone that actually codes full table-based websites by hand I would be curious to know what reasoning they have for not switching. You can probably also wrap the code in a blockquote. And then discover that I forgot a somewhere and nothing lines up with the adjacent cells. I do think there is an advantage for div based techniques for high traffic sites and I will continue to expand my knowledge of div based layouts for this reason. Other people would find it just as easy to code the same layout with css. Tables and divs are the structure. The best practices standard for doing web design is to use DIVs for page structure and tables for tabular data only. Let us have a glance on the benefits and drawbacks of CSS. Once to understand the structure and another time to present it. The best things in life are not necessarily easy or easy to learn. Unless you offer specifics Im going to assume youre just name calling, because you were unhappy with my previous comment. Im not going to stop you. My process doesnt involve spending hours resolving cross-browser compatibility issues by the way. This is the same when using divs. There is no drag and drop anymore. That extra pass at the code makes table-based layouts take longer to display. (801) 636-5158. If someone wants to use tables and it gets the job done then more power to them. I can bring myself to use tables, but css severly restricts my deisgns because of cross-browser compatibility. You make the assumption that because it takes you 5 hours to develop a layout in css that its the same for other people. Of course that depends on the developer more than the code itself. 3. 2. Im still a little inexperienced to style the whole design in CSS, though. Tables should be used when a bunch of blocks need to depend on each other, like maintain the same height, or to cooperate in filling their parents width. Thats not the case. Using isnt semantic and isnt CSS. As you can see I still strongly favor css layouts, but I think many of the arguments on either side of the debate get a little silly at times. By using our site, you I feel like Im at a confessional since most web designers dont do it this way, but my designs image heavy and clients have been very pleased with my work. Also, Ive found no help in trying to figure out how to replicate the effect of a table layout where certain cells are merged. With a table-based layout the only way this would be possible would be to go into every page of your site and change the underlying structure. But some things can be said about the style of a website. acknowledge that you have read and understood our, Data Structure & Algorithm Classes (Live), Data Structures & Algorithms in JavaScript, Data Structure & Algorithm-Self Paced(C++/JAVA), Full Stack Development with React & Node JS(Live), Android App Development with Kotlin(Live), Python Backend Development with Django(Live), DevOps Engineering - Planning to Production, GATE CS Original Papers and Official Keys, ISRO CS Original Papers and Official Keys, ISRO CS Syllabus for Scientist/Engineer Exam, Interview Preparation For Software Developers. and on. I think not. A 10 MS difference is meaningless. 2. The limiting factors isnt the language, its my ability to use the language. I disagree with you that both are techniques with little distinction. Some of these advantages are: 1. WebUsing CSS tableless design will provide your website visitors better usability and accessibility, faster page load times with greater, more elegant design possibilities. What css function does that? of CSS vs tables when it is clear that one can can use CSS techniques with respect to tables as well as divs? To me, framing the debate this way is yet another attempt to make a distinction I REALLY dont have any desire to fight that battle again. Ive heard the argument that reduced code helps with SEO, with people saying that too much code makes it harder for Google to parse. Learning at write CSS layouts can be tricky, especially if you become familiar with usage tables, but here's why CSS is your best programming bet. As we add more to the pages design the table complexity continues to increase compared to divs. Take two developers, one who is fluent with tables and one who is fluent with divs, hand them a layered PSD file and ask them to code a web page to see who finishes first. 4. Newspapers have figured out this ideal layout a long time ago, and have thus named their writers columnists. Different browsers rendered the design differently. However, know that the industry has moved on. The conclusion is I dont know the language well enough to communicate in it. How to use CSS in different dimension (CSS-in-JS) ? They use less code. The only people who suggest that are those that havent learned how to layout a site with css. Times have changed. One thing Ive noticed in your tutorials is that your not very accurate with alignment. What happens if it goes 1 pixel beyond the the available size? I dont care what anybody says. I look forward to the day when a page renders the same way in all browsers for specific CSS statements. Ive been a designer for over 20 years and been using tables for layout for 13 years. Divs can work independently from each other. Separate of style and structure is less about whether or not you use css or tables. So does laying out a site with tables. A table does. Ive been studying the Eric Meyer CSS books, so I am picking up CSS quickly. Great debate. : Get certifiedby completinga course today! It totally contradicts the argument that you can completely change the layout with only css, as if youd want to put one item before another. I have an unorthodox, perhaps unstandardized approach to web design. Tables are like having the blocks bolted together and needing all blocks to be bolted before the structure itself holds together. Theres no need for a I believe Whats best in a given scenario depends mostly on the skill set of the person doing the job. In theory, CSS is the answer, the problem is that the way browsers deal with SOME of it is not only not standardized, but can actually have the exact opposite result for example position: absolute can cause a column to move to the left in one browser and cause it to move down in another, and cause it to move up in yet another. It has the power for re-positioning. Some times you just need to get it done and move on. Cascading Style Sheets (CSS): CSS is defined as a method sheet language that provides web designers control over how an internet site communicates with web browsers including the formatting and display of their HTML documents. Ive been doing web design since the beginning of the internet as a hobby and now professionally and I like a combination of both worlds. Hopefully people will start accepting table-cell or something similar. I disagree about it being more code. Many people are able to build sites using css as a layout and getting them to work cross-browser including IE without any difficulty. I feel the same about maintain tables-based sites. I am trying very hard to see the div method for table data as advantageous and not combursome since I about about to refactor a massive project soon. I would never develop the site that way, but I know there are people who can. Like I said the debate the wont die. Unfortunately, by using tables I think increased load time and perhaps SEO unfriendliness of my code are stumbling blocks to my future success as a web designer. . Replacing one with the other will lead to unnecessary complication. By understanding what each layout method is designed for you'll be in a good position to understand which method is Just change the template file. I do have a very fast development process which involves slicing an image file from my designer, using a tool called Image Splitter. As people combat these myths the debate goes on and on combating misinformation while dancing around the central issue. Itll be interesting to see how it develops and also what kind of browser support it gets. very nice article, good job, i wanted to add my comment based on my own humble experience.. CSS is like a a sword, once you master it, you could be a powerful warrior, and if you truly go advanced with it, youll never ever consider tables once you start writing complicated web apps, that consist of heavy javascript code for the layout, youll feel how important CSS is.. However there are other methods to abstract changes that need to be applied to more then one file into a single file. There are many more people who dont have those problems. This can provide evidence that will back-up a particular choice. Artificial intelligence designer salary. On the other hand, judicious use of semantically meaningful HTML combined with CSS might confine such changes to the CSS and the pictures used. This is one of those debates that never seems to go away and I guess Im not exactly doing my part to make it go away with this post. I typed along with all the code samples and it helped me a lot. IE is a lot more standards compliant than youre giving it credit for. The similar change affects on all the browsers. Consistency. The main advantage of CSS is that style is applied consistently across variety of sites. I didnt make any specific performance claims here other than faster, which you apparently proved. No matter how many times I see this question or people making an argument on behalf of their opinion, the technical answer remains the same. To compare we really need to look at sites that are well developed on both sites. To each their own in regards to tables. Search engines are interested in your content, not your code. I honestly dont care what they call it.. as long as it still works like tables. Itll probably be a week or two before I have the time to really look, but if you email me the code I will look. Specifically, it would take more than one div to create a row cell structure so when you need to display data in that structure its actually exactly the same amount of html whether you use a table or nested divs. Ive been using divs for a decade now and never once had to guess where the content would be. document.getElementById( "ak_js_1" ).setAttribute( "value", ( new Date() ).getTime() ); Your email address will not be published. And that, in my view, should be the only thing that qualifies you to comment on the number of passes the browser makes when rendering a page. Thanks Kevin. Im sure there are a few out there already, but one more wont hurt. With equal column heights, yes its easier to create them with tables than with divs alone, though if you look at the last of the 4 methods I described youll see its not hard to create them with divs and css and it still uses less code than using tables. John Taylor Id have to see the css youre using to understand why youre having problems. Better Website Speed For a website to function efficiently, it should have a faster load time. My money will be on the person using divs. Then I had to make changes to one site and thought there had to be a better way. People can build sites without using a table-based layout now and still do. Regarding flexibility, I can see your point about how divs/css can make it possible to flip columns around by only making changes to a css file, and have those changes propagate to many files. Cant be done, we have faux columns but thats really just green screen trickery in doing so. Im not sure why people think it takes a lot of time to get things working cross browser. Regarding Google using load times, does that mean that if your server is on a lower bandwidth connection, or on a slower server that Google will hold that against you, or do they have a way of disregarding those variables and just base it on how long each page would take to load if bandwidth, lag and server response were constant? I think there are appropriate uses for tables, but I dont think the overall layout of a page is one of those appropriate uses. This is rubbish. I never broke any of your layouts or created display bugs in whatever you produced. Download a free sample from my book, Design Fundamentals. Disadvantages of OS Maps (3) Scale needed, instantly out of date, doesn't have seasonal changes. 2)Less code?No.Comparably,table-based websites are having much less lines of code to write.Because,you are also writing the CSS,and its always not one file.So,code is much much less. Menu. I will need to learn more about how to use cssdiv to do a page layout. Create a CSS Fireflies background using HTML/CSS, CSS pseudo elements every CSS developer should know. Tables are not effective by themselves anymore I agree, it takes a lot of time updating thing manually, so CSS is a BIG help. If I throw out a website which has no padding or un symetrial or miss-aligned text I would be asked to start over. (Dont laugh, my skills probably saved my job.) My question to you is Why frame this debate in terms I learned by reading the book Eric Meyer on CSS. What I will say though is that every person Ive ever met who was equally capable at using both css and tables chooses to use css. The greater flexibility you can create with your structure and the maintenance advantages are the more important reasons. You pointed out that table cells dont work independently. I agree with using divs and css to display content for what I think is a pretty simple reason if I want to change the look of my site I can write a new style sheet using the same div IDs and the site is suddenly completely different. However if you dont need this right away I am planning a post on setting up a 2 column layout with css in the next couple of weeks. Everything else is really irrelevant. Discuss the advantages and disadvantages of using a table and CSS formatting for displaying the fitness centers hours and fees on the website. I did say calling this css vs tables isnt really correct and that its really about tables and divs. WebCSS is clearly preferable in cases where presentational markup and CSS support the same kind of design, no one in their right mind would argue that font-tags are better than In addition there are the little seemingly obscure css properties that need to be inserted to make certain things function properly in general, or with older browsers. When you ask about table type content with css do you mean using css to show tabular data or are you asking more about how to style tables? I agree that once you master css you can be very powerful with it. Hopefully I can clear up a few things in this post and let you make your own decision. Software developers have known that for years and its equally true of the code used to develop a web page or site. He takes a layout done in tables and works to change it to divs and css. Unless you view the source code, it isnt always obvious how a coder puts together a page. Covering popular subjects like HTML, CSS, JavaScript, Python, SQL, Java, and This style will be applied across all web pages and changes will only be made to one line of code. Which CSS framework is better Tailwind CSS or Bootstrap ? The reason people are still defending table based layouts is because tables are the correct SHAPE for most client specifications, not independent blocks floated to the left, or independent blocks with absolute positioning or independent blocks using any other trick to make them seem like they cooperate. Artificial intelligence design advantages: How can AI help to design? As for formatting and style, you should use a clear and descriptive title that reflects the main topic and keywords of your paper. Covering popular subjects like HTML, CSS, JavaScript, Python, SQL, Java, and many, many more. Really? If youre constantly having to fix old code though, I would recommend looking into the feasibility of redeveloping the site. The posts arent just about the code, but I do provide the basic html and css I use now for a 3 column layout. ) Scale needed, instantly out of advantages and disadvantages of using a table and css formatting, does n't have changes. 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